PC Adding PC games to the Database

[twistedsymphony]

So I would like to expand the CE database to include PC games...

I don't collect PC games personally and that combine with the difficulty in categorizing PC games is what has really prevented me from adding them to the DB.

So I would like to open this up for discussion... there are three big questions.

1. How to we categorize the "PC" Platform
There are a number of ways we might do this...
1. is by Operating system consider "Windows 7" games a different platform than say "Windows XP" games, of course there is also the issue of cross-compatibility. which platform do we file that under?

2. another method is by media... I see a lot of games with a "PC DVD" logo, that could be a platform, while older games might be "PC CD" and older games "PC Floppy" or something along those lines. But what about games that were released in both DVD and CD or maybe had both in the same box? how do we classify those? Is there an official validation procedure a game must go though to hold the "PC DVD" logo? if so, does anyone know what it is? Are there any games that were released on thumb drives or flash media that we'd be missing out on?

3. another option is based on existing official "platforms" such as "Games for Windows Live" I like this option because it's a clearly defined platform... unfortunately very few games are included under this umbrella. which means using it wont really solve the problem here.

4. no classification at all, all PC games are just "PC Games" and that includes everything way back since the 80s.

2. How do we decide what is included and what is not?
Clearly PC CE releases that get cross platform releases with consoles should be included, as should big name publisher CE releases such as those from Blizzard, Sega, Ubisoft, etc. But what about all that shovel-ware? Do we want to include "Monopoly 2011 Gold Edition" that goes for $10 at Walmart? I don't think so... but how to define where that line is drawn... what separates a valid CE release from one that doesn't belong in the Database?

3. Do PC CEs have regions?
Obviously the PC is a region free platform, but a US collector might not care about a European release...or how do we differentiate between the European and the US release of a PC CE if they have the same name but completely different content?

Do we want to assign arbitrary regions? or do we want to just assume all PC games are "international" and not assign any regions at all?

[scourdx]

I would keep it simple and go by title release and split them by decade time (80,90,00,10 & etc). Within the title, we can mention variation and different region CE. I would not count PC games into specific OS because it can open a lot of debate. For instance older games like Starcraft would work on Win95, 98, NT, 2000, ME, XP, Vista, 7 and Mac. So it will be too hard to confirm which game will work with what OS. I would generalize it as PC or Mac game. As for type of CE, PC do get a lot of shovelware to attract all the casual gamer. A lot of the packaging do mention special edition and other marketing ploy. I would ignore that and stick with PC CE that offers more than just a jewelcase packaging with limited edition written on it.

[gurpswoo1]

WOW - If this database goes ahead it's going to huge, so many releases in the past.

I agree with Scourdx, spilting into decades is the best idea.

[twistedsymphony]

I'd rather based the "generations" on something more concrete than decades....

does anyone know who owns this logo?



if I broke it down by CD/DVD it would be about

????-1984- Pre CD
1985-1994 - CE
1995-NOW - DVD
^that's based on when the format actually became availble... I would suspect you'd see it shifted about 5 years based on when they actually saw heavy use.

I'd also suspect that in a year or two we'll start seeing PC games on bluray with multi-DVD games fairly common and blu-ray drive prices coming down.

though it seems most PC gamers just buy on Steam or D2D or whatever.

----------------

EDIT: according to this:
http://www.quartertothree.com/game-t...ead.php?t=8147
the first PC CD-ROM game was "Manhole" by Activision in 1989 but it didn't really become popular until 1994 when Myst was released.


and according to this:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=45430

aside from a few bleeding edge stragglers PC-DVD games didn't start appearing until 1998

I think I'm starting to warm up to the idea of the Medium dictating the "platform" for PC games

we could have

PC Floppy
PC CD-ROM
PC DVD-ROM
PC Download
PC Blu-Ray

part of the reason I like this is because even with games that were released say on CD as well as DVD, it was almost like a separate Edition of the game, you went to the store and picked up the box with the medium you wanted... for our DB of a CE was released on both CD and DVD I would think it would have 2 entries to differentiate them anyway.

[Gemini-Phoenix]

The problem I see with this is the fact that there are so many PC games released, and backtracking through them all would be an epic nightmare! Even if we just started with SteelBook's, that's a hell of a lot of SteelBook's to track down! Even I would struggle to gather significant data for PC CE's and LE's, and I own my fair share!

I honestly think this would be too much hard work for us. It's difficult enough just keeping track of the console releases, let alone adding PC games to the mix. None of us here have the expertise or knowledge, and we'd just end up spamming the site up with "You haven't included this or that PC game"

I would also think that if we were to include PC games, they would end up eclipsing the console games 2:1! There really is THAT many out there! Plus, where would we draw the line? Would we only include post Windows XP games?


I personally think we would be better off including DS and PSP CE's, or last generation (PS2, Xbox, GameCube) rather than go down the PC route. Weve left it too long, and logistically there are just too many PC games out there to catalogue, and very little information available in contrast to console LE's and CE's

[Mandingo]

What is PC Download?

[Gemini-Phoenix]

Now my personal thoughts have been expressed, I though I would break down your initial post:

Originally Posted by Twistedsymphony

I don't collect PC games personally and that combine with the difficulty in categorizing PC games is what has really prevented me from adding them to the DB.

Neither do I, as a rule, although I do happen to own several CE's for games I like.

I also don't believe that the PC collecting scene is as popular as the console collecting scene, especially when a lot of PC games seem to devalue rather quickly in a short space of time. Even the CE's (With exception of a few) are worthless to many. Sealed examples still make good money, but they are another kettle of fish, and even then it's only specific titles which are sought after (Such as the World Of Warcraft CE's)

1. How to we categorize the "PC" Platform

There are a number of ways we might do this...
1. is by Operating system consider "Windows 7" games a different platform than say "Windows XP" games, of course there is also the issue of cross-compatibility. which platform do we file that under?

An interesting concept, but this would involve a lot of research into which OS a game is compatible with or intended for. Obviously this is easy if you own the game, but in our case we would be researching this entirely from what we can source on the internet. And as we all know, the internet is not always a reliable source of information, and it's better to get this information first hand where possible. I for one am not prepared to start collecting PC games just for this reason.

2. another method is by media... I see a lot of games with a "PC DVD" logo, that could be a platform, while older games might be "PC CD" and older games "PC Floppy" or something along those lines. But what about games that were released in both DVD and CD or maybe had both in the same box? how do we classify those? Is there an official validation procedure a game must go though to hold the "PC DVD" logo? if so, does anyone know what it is? Are there any games that were released on thumb drives or flash media that we'd be missing out on?

Not to sure that this would be a very productive way of categorising the games as anyone browsing the database may not know which kind of media a specific game comes on. Eg, is X game on CD Rom or Dvd ROM? This would just make it difficult for all involved and reading. Plus some games come on more than one kind of media...

3. another option is based on existing official "platforms" such as "Games for Windows Live" I like this option because it's a clearly defined platform... unfortunately very few games are included under this umbrella. which means using it wont really solve the problem here.

I like this option as well, but we would then have to draw the line at the point where this started being in common use. The downside to this would be we would miss out anything which came before this came into use. Ie. There were a lot of SteelBook's and CE's in circulation a long time before this format started being used. The plus side would be we wouldn't have to backtrack too far, although there have still been an epic amount of PC CE's released within the last three or four years since CE's became a more popular form factor

4. no classification at all, all PC games are just "PC Games" and that includes everything way back since the 80s.

PC games are PC games in my book. The alternative would be to categorise them in five year periods, such as 1990-1994, 1995-1999, 2000-2004, 2005-2009, 2010-2014 etc... This would seem more appropriate as any collector would have a rough idea of the age of a game, and would also dictate what OS a game would run on at the same time (More or less)

2. How do we decide what is included and what is not?

Clearly PC CE releases that get cross platform releases with consoles should be included, as should big name publisher CE releases such as those from Blizzard, Sega, Ubisoft, etc. But what about all that shovel-ware? Do we want to include "Monopoly 2011 Gold Edition" that goes for $10 at Walmart? I don't think so... but how to define where that line is drawn... what separates a valid CE release from one that doesn't belong in the Database?

I think this is a given. A lot of current games which are released for X360 and Ps3 are also available for PC. These ones will be easy to track down and include, as the majority are more or less identical to their console counterparts. But like you say, what about the shovelware?

Also, what about re-issues and re-releases of older games? PC games typically get re-branded as some kind of classics range or Gold Edition, or "Complete Edition", so would we draw the line at first releases only? That's definitely one route to consider, but then if we started doing that then what is the point of us creating a database if we're going to pick and choose?

3. Do PC CEs have regions?

Obviously the PC is a region free platform, but a US collector might not care about a European release...or how do we differentiate between the European and the US release of a PC CE if they have the same name but completely different content?

Do we want to assign arbitrary regions? or do we want to just assume all PC games are "international" and not assign any regions at all?

As a collector, I know I would still care about regional branding, despite the fact that PC software is compatible worldwide. Eg, I would still care whether my CE had UK BBFC logos on rather than US ESRB ratings. Likewise, I would prefer a UK version in English, rather than some Spanish, French, German, or other European language release.

So the answer to this question is yes, I think it would still matter, and if we were to do this we would obviously have to split the category up into Europe, America, and other worldwide. However, this would create even more work for us as we would have to confirm not only a US release, but also every single European release as well...



At the end of the day, as I mentioned in my previous post, I honestly think this is too much effort, especially considering there are more useful things we could include which would be far more appropriate as well as more useful to collector's.

If we're going to be adding more sections to the site, we may as well add something we know quite a bit about rather than something we know absolutely nothing about.

[Gemini-Phoenix]

On a side note, does anyone remember in the early 90's when CD ROM's used to come in huge square protective cases, like giant Mini Disc's? Lol! PC discs were considered so fragile back then! And to think we thought this was cutting edge technology! Lol!

I remember accessing Encarta '94 in high school using these discs! Looking back, I remember how amazed I was that one disc could hold so many encyclopedia entries, yet I suppose it has somewhat become obsolete now we have the likes of Wikipedia.

[Mandingo]

does anyone remember in the early 90's when CD ROM's used to come in huge square protective cases, like giant Mini Disc's? PC discs were considered so fragile back then!

Every optical media has gone through this sort of incubation stage in the beginning. Hell, even blu-rays required protective cases (not seen at retail) at first, until Durabis was introduced.

[twistedsymphony]

Originally Posted by Gemini-Phoenix

The problem I see with this is the fact that there are so many PC games released, and backtracking through them all would be an epic nightmare! Even if we just started with SteelBook's, that's a hell of a lot of SteelBook's to track down! Even I would struggle to gather significant data for PC CE's and LE's, and I own my fair share!

I honestly think this would be too much hard work for us. It's difficult enough just keeping track of the console releases, let alone adding PC games to the mix. None of us here have the expertise or knowledge, and we'd just end up spamming the site up with "You haven't included this or that PC game"

for PCs I'm planning on relying on the users to submit information to help fill up the back-catalog... I'll add new/upcoming CEs as I learn about them like I do with consoles games. This is how I plan on taking care of the Portible releases going forward

I'm considering a new "submission" procedure to replace or at least make the additions/corrections forums less spammy.

Originally Posted by Gemini-Phoenix

I would also think that if we were to include PC games, they would end up eclipsing the console games 2:1! There really is THAT many out there! Plus, where would we draw the line? Would we only include post Windows XP games?

I've been working on revamping how the information on the game pages is displayed, also I plan on reworking the integration with the forum so that we have a topic per game that covers all platforms/regions/editions.... there is really no reason we need 8 topics for Call of Duty Black ops... (one for each region/platform/and edition combination) 1 topic for all editions of the game I think would be preferable. this would mean that anything that is released on PC as well would be included in that topic, and the only PC games that get their own topic would be PC exclusives.

Originally Posted by Gemini-Phoenix

I personally think we would be better off including DS and PSP CE's, or last generation (PS2, Xbox, GameCube) rather than go down the PC route. Weve left it too long, and logistically there are just too many PC games out there to catalogue, and very little information available in contrast to console LE's and CE's

I'm planning on adding everything... eventually. Portables are next on the list, followed by PC CE, and then we'll expand into older consoles such as PS2, xbox GC, etc....

Originally Posted by Mandingo

What is PC Download?

Steam, Direct2Drive, etc.

I'm not going to add any CE's that don't include a Physical box, however I could imagine at some point in the future a CE being released where instead of a disc it includes a game voucher for Steam or whatever, they've done it with the 360 and PS3 already... maybe it's already happened on the PC? if it has I'm not familiar with it.

Originally Posted by Gemini-Phoenix

I also don't believe that the PC collecting scene is as popular as the console collecting scene, especially when a lot of PC games seem to devalue rather quickly in a short space of time. Even the CE's (With exception of a few) are worthless to many. Sealed examples still make good money, but they are another kettle of fish, and even then it's only specific titles which are sought after (Such as the World Of Warcraft CE's)

I agree. though I think titles such as WOW, Civilization, EVE, Diablo, Etc. do deserve to be included in the DB... I'm not sure what I'll use for criteria to determine what will be included.

I think anything that is cross platform with consoles will get in-automatically, also anything from big name game publishers such as Blizzard, Sega, Ubisoft, etc. will get a free pass, beyond that I'll be basing inclusions on what the community alerts me to.

Originally Posted by Gemini-Phoenix

Not to sure that this would be a very productive way of categorising the games as anyone browsing the database may not know which kind of media a specific game comes on. Eg, is X game on CD Rom or Dvd ROM? This would just make it difficult for all involved and reading. Plus some games come on more than one kind of media...

I've pretty much decided that media type is how I'll separate out PC releases... Most publishers stick the "PC DVD-ROM" or the "PC CD-ROM" logo on the box where they would normally stick "PS3" or "Xbox 360" so it makes sense in that capacity.
The straw that broke the camel's back was when I visited several major publishers website and saw that companies like Sega and Atari would list "PC CD-ROM", "PC DVD-ROM" and "PC Download" as 3 separate platforms alongside Xbox 360, PS3, and Wii

In my eye this makes it a defacto standard.

with the new game page layout I'm working on collectors having to know which platform they're looking for will become less important.

Originally Posted by Gemini-Phoenix

A lot of current games which are released for X360 and Ps3 are also available for PC. These ones will be easy to track down and include, as the majority are more or less identical to their console counterparts. But like you say, what about the shovelware?

Also, what about re-issues and re-releases of older games? PC games typically get re-branded as some kind of classics range or Gold Edition, or "Complete Edition", so would we draw the line at first releases only? That's definitely one route to consider, but then if we started doing that then what is the point of us creating a database if we're going to pick and choose?

this is perhaps the most difficult part of adding PC games. I'll rely heavily on the community to determine what should and should-not be included.

I've been thinking about guidelines and I don't think our console rules would fit well for PCs... I think a good method to combat shovelwhere and re-releases are as follows:

1. if the CE release is sold around the same time (say within a month or so, to accommodate those that might get delayed due to printing issues) as the first print standard edition release

2. any release after the the time of the initial release MUST include some kind of PHYSICAL pack in, artbook, soundtrack disc, figurine, etc... voucher based re-releases, or software "bundles" should not be considered.

I think the only exceptions to #2 are those that get a cross platform release with consoles games, or those that the community submit as needing to be included.

Originally Posted by Gemini-Phoenix

As a collector, I know I would still care about regional branding, despite the fact that PC software is compatible worldwide. Eg, I would still care whether my CE had UK BBFC logos on rather than US ESRB ratings. Likewise, I would prefer a UK version in English, rather than some Spanish, French, German, or other European language release.

So the answer to this question is yes, I think it would still matter, and if we were to do this we would obviously have to split the category up into Europe, America, and other worldwide. However, this would create even more work for us as we would have to confirm not only a US release, but also every single European release as well...

we currently track "regions" in 2 ways.
1. based on the physical ENCODING of the disc ie: [PAL] and [NTSC] or for Sony products regions [1] [2] [3] [4] and [5].

This obviously doesn't help you with localization for the English UK release versus a German or French release.

2. We currently track the country as well, though a lot of this specific information is missing from the DB, we've done a decent job of marking US and UK specific release but a very poor job of marking release for other parts of the globe... I think with the PC the "encoding" will be "none" but we'll have to keep closer tabs on the language localization aspects. of these releases.

Originally Posted by Gemini-Phoenix

At the end of the day, as I mentioned in my previous post, I honestly think this is too much effort, especially considering there are more useful things we could include which would be far more appropriate as well as more useful to collector's.

If we're going to be adding more sections to the site, we may as well add something we know quite a bit about rather than something we know absolutely nothing about.

I don't actually plan on adding PC releases "soon" it's several positions down on my "to-do list" for CE.o... however I wanted to open this discussion sooner rather than later so when we DO add PC games to the DB we will be able to do so with a clear direction in mind instead of trying to figure it out on the fly.